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Re: [Mingw-w64-public] Thoughts on supporting the C++11 thread library on Windows
I've taken the liberty of cross-posting this to the mingw list
(a separate project from mingw-w64), as they are the other
big windows-focused "downstream" consumer of gcc.
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Jonathan Wakely <email@example.com> wrote:
> On 7 May 2012 18:28, K. Frank wrote:
>> Hello Gabriel (and Ruben)!
>> By the way, I'm the guy Ruben mentioned in his subsequent post.
>> On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Gabriel Dos Reis
>> <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
>>> Including the mingw64 project about this.
>>> On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Jonathan Wakely <email@example.com> wrote:
>>>> For GCC 4.7 I enabled most of <thread> (without timed mutexes) on Mac
>>>> OS X by making the _GLIBCXX_HAS_GTHREADS macro more fine-grained. ?I
>>>> think we could quite easily do the same again for the win32 thread
>>>> model (defined in gthr-win32.h) so that <thread> and <mutex> are
>>>> available (including timed mutexes), but without <condition_variable>
>>>> and <future>.
>> Just my opinion: ?One could make the macro more fine-grained, but I
>> really wouldn't want to do this. ?If I'm using <thread> I'm using c++11,
>> so I like to think I'm in the "modern world." ?I think (in the modern world)
>> that condition variables are a core part of threading, so I'd find is a
>> significant limitation if my c++11 implementation didn't have them.
> Well currently you get none of the thread support when GCC is built
> with --enable-threads=win32. ?IMHO that's an even more significant
> limitation than no <condition_variable>
Ah, okay. I don't use --enable-threads=win32 or really know what
it is. With what I think is the thoughtful and powerful threading
support in c++11, my main focus has been to write standard,
portable threading code using <thread>, hence my motivation
to get <thread> working on mingw / mingw-w64.
One note: In my experimentation, I wrote some windows-api
threading programs and built them without specifying
--enable-threads=win32, and they all seemed to work., So I
guess I don't understand what --enable-threads=win32 is
supposed to do.
>>>> It's harder to support <condition_variable> because Windows didn't
>>>> provide condition variables until Vista, and even then they interact
>>>> with a CRITICAL_SECTION and gthr-win32.h defines mutexes in terms of a
>>>> semaphore not a critical section.
>> Even leaving condition variables aside, I really don't think you want to
>> implement mutexes in terms of windows semaphores (or windows mutexes)
>> (unless your primary goal is to support older (pre-xp?) versions of windows.)
> Too late. That's how they're implemented when GCC is built with
Again, I'm not all that big on backward compatibility, and, as noted
above, I don't understand what --enable-threads=win32 is for. But
my gut reaction is if that the gcc implementation (with
--enable-threads=win32) is sub-optimal, maybe it makes sense to
do it "right," even at the cost of backward compatibility.
> My first suggestion is to improve that one in limited ways, retaining
> backwards compatibility but adding <thread> and <mutex> which AFAIK
> don't currently work.
Yeah, okay. I would see value in making incremental improvements
to something that's already in use.
> My second suggestion is to write a replacement (call it
> --enable-threads=win64 for the sake of argument) which would use
> critical sections and support <thread>, <mutex>, <ondition_variable>
> and <future>.
Just to be clear: Why would mingw-w64's winpthreads-based <thread>
implementation not fit the bill for the replacement you suggest?
> The suggestions are independent of each other.
Yes, I understand that now.
>>?The way I look at it I used win32, i.e., I implemented <thread>
>> on top of the vista-and-later version of win32.)
>>>> Critical sections don't support a timed
>>>> wait, so that thread model would be similar to the Mac OS X support
>>>> and omit timed mutexes.
>> I had to write some extra code to get timed mutexes to work. ?I used
>> windows critical sections (just as for untimed mutexes), but spawned
>> a helper thread that blocked on the critical section, and had the original
>> thread use a timed windows WaitForSingleObject to wait (with a
>> timeout) for the helper thread.
> Spawning a new thread to block on a mutex seems over the top, but if
> it works it works.
This approach didn't seem ideal to me, either.
However, given my two self-imposed constraints:
use windows critical sections for timed mutexes (for performance
and to keep timed mutexes using the same underlying mechanism
as untimed mutexes)
not reimplement the core mutex logic (e.g., not maintain my own
queue or set of threads waiting on the mutex)
spawning the helper thread was the only way I could figure out how
to make timed mutexes work. I would be very interested if anyone
has a suggestion as to how to avoid the helper thread, consistent
with the above two constraints.
>>>> That could easily be solved by implementing
>>>> std::timed_mutex as a Windows mutex instead of a critical section,
>> Again, I wouldn't recommend using windows mutexes as you would
>> lose condition variables.
> No you wouldn't. ?std::condition_variable only works with std::mutex
> (which we agree should use a critical section), so it's irrelevant how
> std::timed_mutex is implemented. ?If you want to use a condition
> variable with a std:timed_mutex then you have to use
> std::condition_variable_any and that internally uses a std::mutex, so
> can internally use native OS condition varaibles.
Yes, okay, that's fair. My thinking had been for consistency (foolish
consistency?) that mutexes and timed mutexes "ought" to be based
on the same underlying synchronization method.
>> And although I don't care much about pthreads, as a practical matter
>> there is an awful lot of pthreads code out there so a mingw-w64
>> offering that doesn't support pthreads would be a significant limitation.
>> Now that mingw-w64 has winpthreads, it's very little work to modify
>> the linux gcc <thread> implementation to work on windows.
> There isn't a linux <thread> implementation, there is a POSIX one,
> used by building GCC with --enable-threads=posix. ?I expect that
> already works on Windows, I'm only talking about
I'm not sure I understand this. I am under the impression that if I get
a generic linux gcc (of late enough vintage), and use "--std=c++0x",
then <thread> works (just like it does on windows with Ruben's
Maybe it's just semantics, but why doesn't that count as a "linux
> Thanks for the mail, it confirms a lot of what I thought based on some
> basic research and zero experience of Windows threading :)
And thank you for your support and pro-active concern for the needs
of the windows-based gcc community.